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[职业发展] 移民澳紐就是放棄技術理想等退休養老

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181#
发表于 17-10-2015 18:24:42 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 DDD888 于 17-10-2015 18:28 编辑
sdcmc 发表于 17-10-2015 18:23
不用這麼詳細啦, AUCKLAND就夠啦, 又不是叫你推薦买哪個區的房好.


我以为你想知道详细点,但又不能把我家地址给你,就给个区啦

对其他想知道好区的人,epsom auckland非常好,有 auckland grammar girls/boys school.可惜我2000年不知道,现在是买不起啦
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182#
发表于 17-10-2015 18:26:49 | 只看该作者
DDD888 发表于 17-10-2015 18:24
我以为你想知道详细点,但又不能把我家地址给你,就给个区啦

好的,如果以後真去NZ, 买房找你推薦.
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183#
发表于 17-10-2015 18:28:44 | 只看该作者
sdcmc 发表于 17-10-2015 18:26
好的,如果以後真去NZ, 买房找你推薦.

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184#
发表于 17-10-2015 18:30:35 | 只看该作者
DDD888 发表于 17-10-2015 18:24
我以为你想知道详细点,但又不能把我家地址给你,就给个区啦

对其他想知道好区的人,ep ...

公校,私校?
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185#
发表于 17-10-2015 18:42:28 | 只看该作者
Daibaw 发表于 17-10-2015 15:38
What are you trying to derive from that table?

From what I see it matches my point: almost e ...

Given the population density of the places like Hong Kong, Singapore or Tokyo, it's hard to deny that they deserve a reasonable high price. Don't forget Australia and New Zealand are extremely sparsely populated countries, which tells the "lower house price" in the past reflect its a relatively reasonable price. Take NZ for example, it's a nation with similar area as that of the UK, while the  latter has a 15 times larger population. Anybody living in Auckland would admit that, though being considered the biggest city across the country, there are so many not-yet explored land even in the district not far from CBD. Few argue that NZ lack usable land.

Secondly, despite the population density, in a normal and healthy market, the housing price relates to the income people can earn there. An typical example to clarify this point is like Shanghai, why so many people in China are surging in Shanghai. Working in Shanghai means lots of technical job oppurtunities with times of pay than that in a small town in inland area. That is to say, Shanghai somehow deverse a high living price. In contrast, what's the reward of working in Sydney or Auckland? A number of reports show that the increase of housing price outstrip salary, or Aucklanders earn more from home than work, while the gap is on the rise. Everyone knows what it means to workers? Has anybody talked with the typical workers that can't afford housing and struggling with the high living cost, who can't get huge support from their wealthy parents, unlike most one-child Chinese migrants? People study and work in the US don't have such issue and most of those do come from a less wealthy background as I know. A fair society from my perspective should reward people by their capabilities not the wealth of their parents.

Just like the guy working in NZ taxation bureau said: the disproportionate tells us this country doesn suit salary workers like you, but those who are bringing  money into the country and enjoy the life (and the income from the houses). The housing price is driven by those from overseas not from local workers.

Lets come back to the income/housing ranking. San Francisco turns to be the only major US city with a high ranking position. But is the job prospect there just a little better than Sydney/Auckland? More improtantly, most American worker especially in technical position don't need to stay in metroplis area, in comparison to marketing/financial ones. Just like my classmate in US said, don't argue that the housing price in Auckland so expensive, why do you stay in the largest city? I can't afford the house in NYC either. The fact he revealed is, unlike in US, people working in IT must stay in big cities here, nowhere in even smaller cities. But in the US that's by no means the case. He works in Texas as a chemistry scientist, and we can see the ratio of Texas cities. The paradise is just the place where you work in a relatively small town (which does attact property investors) while doing a highly technical job. Sydney/Auckland are just on the opposite. Surely for property speculation, the preference is on the other way, Auckland has a high potential, who cares about the salary of local workers?

<<For most people (except those with endless pocket who can flip multiple houses in a year) in order to make the best out of the property market, one must maintain a highly paid job (which means they DO work don't do dodgy things to evade tax) so that they can benefit from the tax deduction.>>

Statitical data and my own experience strongly deny this assertion. Offical data shows that most Chinese Australian and Chinese New Zealanders earn less then the national average (in the US, Chinese American earn more than national average), while the house ownership is arguably high: the Chinese housing debate early in NZ already sparked a national debate according to the data revealed by the property agent. For me I met a number of Chinese migrants here, unfortunately none of them earn more than me, but ALL own at least one house (typically 2~3). Some even live on benefits, and the most of them never pay tax on the rent income (which made the offical income underrated, that is to say the legal income of Chinese migrants tend to be low but not the actual overall income).

I wish what you tell me is the truth: most migrants here are hard-working, have high income in highly technical jobs, and they have little interest in the income from property bubble, but my rational understanding clearly suggests that is the United States, not here.
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186#
发表于 17-10-2015 18:50:43 | 只看该作者

当然是公校啦,私校只要交钱就行啦,无所谓校区啦
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187#
发表于 17-10-2015 18:52:36 | 只看该作者
DDD888 发表于 17-10-2015 18:50
当然是公校啦,私校只要交钱就行啦,无所谓校区啦

AUCKLAND的房價,可根澳洲的哪個城市比?
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188#
发表于 17-10-2015 18:55:34 | 只看该作者
ScientificAmeri 发表于 17-10-2015 18:42
Given the population density of the places like Hong Kong, Singapore or Tokyo, it's hard to deny t ...

太長了,先只說最後的, 如果是說逃歲漏稅的, 那個應該加大對做非法事情的成本, 不過澳,紐的法律系統, 對這个,
向來是比較溫和的. 這个,有利有弊吧.
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189#
发表于 17-10-2015 18:57:22 | 只看该作者
DDD888 发表于 17-10-2015 16:59
你的思路很清晰,我来新西兰的时候,没有许多人想去新西兰,想不到这些年过后,风水轮流转,新西兰成为 ...

I've already told you in my previous reply: the property price in NZ is inconsistent with the local income, and largely driven by overseas investors. That's has nothing to do with NZ's economic growth which attracts increasingly more migrants. Instead thanks to the rule of Chinese communist, which made those getting rich move out. If the majority of migrants are like the top students studying (from relatively poor family, and have little interest in property investment) in the US, it would have completely different consequence.

It's not about true or false, good or bad. It means people should get to the place that suit them. I respect property investors, and I shouldn't say they are inferior to technical people or top students, just because I came to a wrong place.

Nonetheless, I don't regret migrating to NZ, as escaping from the dirty and terrific communist regime seemed to at the highest priority and I had no better choice to quickly realize it. It's fare to say I should appricieate all I got in NZ (freedom, good natural env, English env), after all recalling the time when I even couldn't watch Discovery Channel/BBC documentary from Youtube, I somehow feel lucky right now.
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190#
发表于 17-10-2015 18:59:21 | 只看该作者
ScientificAmeri 发表于 17-10-2015 18:42
Given the population density of the places like Hong Kong, Singapore or Tokyo, it's hard to deny t ...

其实这社会就是不公平的,在美国也是不公平的,没有任何理由,任何国家的法律都是保护统治阶级的利益,你说再多也没用

你向往的美国,为何华尔街的精英就应该拿比其他行业高的工资?

同样是写程序的,为何写bsp的就应该比写其他行业的多赚钱,不也是同样写while,if?

其实根据就是不公平,既有利益者要想尽办法保护自己的利益啦,谁处于强势,谁就拿多点钱,和美国建立tpp,拿话语权,排除中国一个道理

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191#
发表于 17-10-2015 19:01:22 | 只看该作者
DDD888 发表于 17-10-2015 16:59
你的思路很清晰,我来新西兰的时候,没有许多人想去新西兰,想不到这些年过后,风水轮流转,新西兰成为 ...

Most Chinese migrants firmly believe the housing price in Auckland would NEVER drop, just like how they are confident on the belief of NEVER slowed-down Chinese economy before 2015.

Many Chinese, not all, tend to live with a belief, rather than a rational consideration that avoid facing the reality. And I never found such characteristic among westerners. Unfortunately I can't understand this sort of "culture" if applicable.
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192#
发表于 17-10-2015 19:01:58 | 只看该作者
sdcmc 发表于 17-10-2015 18:52
AUCKLAND的房價,可根澳洲的哪個城市比?

sydney
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193#
发表于 17-10-2015 19:05:37 | 只看该作者
ScientificAmeri 发表于 17-10-2015 18:57
I've already told you in my previous reply: the property price in NZ is inconsistent with the loca ...

你说的很对,这世界就是没有理由可以说,达尔文进化论是说适者生存,没说强者生存或大的生存

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E ... 5%E7%94%9F%E5%AD%98
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194#
发表于 17-10-2015 19:09:00 | 只看该作者
ScientificAmeri 发表于 17-10-2015 19:01
Most Chinese migrants firmly believe the housing price in Auckland would NEVER drop, just like how ...

我和你的观点是一致的,我是迫切需要房价崩溃,那我家就可以买海边的房子啦,但并非我想的就会立即发生,我已经等房价跌等了许多年啦,但它不跌,我能有啥办法呢?
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195#
发表于 17-10-2015 19:11:01 | 只看该作者
DDD888 发表于 17-10-2015 18:21
glenfield, north shore, auckland

我搬来的时候,整条街就我家是中国人,现在变成和上海的小区 ...

This remarkable tendency shows that, what makes the difference to migrate to a English-speaking country, in terms of social atmosphere? As a matter of fact, many living in Auckland working in Chinese stores and hardly speak English, not mention joining the mainstream community.

NZ government is partly responsible for this self-segregation. According to my classmate in US, he hasn't seen such situation in the area he live and most Chinese American speak fluent English in his mind. When I told him many Chinese here are not confident in English when competing with Indian counterparts, he got surprised: he admitted Indians are still more or less doing well in white community, but he didn't attribute it to the English proficiency: all the Chinese colleagues/friends he knows speak as good English as Indians, he even can't believe what I said.

I thinks that makes difference between Chinese American and Chinese NZers as well.
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196#
发表于 17-10-2015 19:13:57 | 只看该作者
DDD888 发表于 17-10-2015 19:05
你说的很对,这世界就是没有理由可以说,达尔文进化论是说适者生存,没说强者生存或大的生存

https://zh. ...

Right, all I'm saying here is this country doesn't suit me, so I have been marginalized, having no way to survive the investment market.
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197#
发表于 17-10-2015 19:21:23 | 只看该作者
DDD888 发表于 17-10-2015 18:59
其实这社会就是不公平的,在美国也是不公平的,没有任何理由,任何国家的法律都是保护统治阶级的利益,你说再 ...

It's already stated in my reply: there's no absolute fair or unfair, it's just suitable or not for individual.

Right you can blame that BSP/electronic engineers shouldn't earn more than App programmers, so you've got a right place, where no those guys can defeat you (one guy from NVIDIA Shanghai just went back to PRC after a failure of job search in NZ)

We shouldn't assert which is more fair or more "correct". What we should do is to get to the place you benefits. Likewise, those who are good at flattery join the communist office, who are good at academic study go to the US. Just comply with Darwin's evolutionary theory.
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198#
发表于 17-10-2015 19:53:57 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 ScientificAmeri 于 17-10-2015 19:56 编辑
DDD888 发表于 17-10-2015 18:59
其实这社会就是不公平的,在美国也是不公平的,没有任何理由,任何国家的法律都是保护统治阶级的利益,你说再 ...


Let me explain why people doing BSP/system level software development earn more in the industrialized countries, in terms of technology and economy.

It's mainly stems from the profitability of the work you do. That is to say, while system software engineers don't write much code in comparison with app programmer, each line of the code written by former lead to much more profits.

Think of a product manufacturer first (just like my current employer), each product they released lead to numerous sales, though depending on the technical/marketing success. In general a single release product financially supports the firm for at least one year. So we can have plenty of time doing design/development/maintenance, rather than an hour-based payment calculation. Our code would be used or maintained for years, the original codebase we are currently maintaining dates back to 4 years ago, which is not uncommon for many product makers. That's why compared to App programmer we write less code, while our code can be delivered to numerous customers for years earning profits.

But when it comes to the IC manufacurer, the profitability arise exponentially, simply because the product makers are our customers, thinking of how many end-users use our IC/code indirectly. What is more, in most cases, the profit of IC sale gains much higher than that from a product maker (like our company). That is to say, the success of the product maker in fact contribute more to the IC designer, end-users may not aware of their spend on the product largely contribute to the IC designers, who is at the top level of this food-chain (or manufacturing chain).

As a result, unlike app programmer who constantly write UI or something like that using hour unit to schedule their projects, IC designers obviously care less about how many hours you have spent on the task. Rather they care about the functionality, the new features, the performance,etc. Time is rarely a issue in this kind of development, so we have enough time to do investigation/design analysis/optimization/bug fix rather than implementing business logics. Generally employers can tolerate delay, but the flaw in the product itself.

Apparently, in a market where such development doesn't exist, app programmers never need to worry about being worse paid, they are actually at the top of food chain (just like kiwi birds survive in this land since no predictors threatening them). When I initially came to NZ, one job agent told me he couldn't understand what I did in my work experience and thought that unsuitable for my job seek in NZ, following his advice, I rewrote it.
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199#
发表于 17-10-2015 20:00:48 | 只看该作者
sdcmc 发表于 17-10-2015 18:55
太長了,先只說最後的, 如果是說逃歲漏稅的, 那個應該加大對做非法事情的成本, 不過澳,紐的法律系統, 對這 ...

It's already an open secret: how many Chinese restaurants/supermarkets legally pay tax and follow the minimum wage? According to my friend working in NZ tax bureau: if these business runners do obey the law, they would all get bankrupt.

As a worker paying tax legally, I feel it's definitely unfair.
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200#
发表于 17-10-2015 20:04:50 | 只看该作者
sdcmc 发表于 17-10-2015 18:52
AUCKLAND的房價,可根澳洲的哪個城市比?

I don't think Auckland is comparable to Sydney, if you take the population, job opps, etc into account, you would find that Auckland is even weaker than Perth. Given Perth's housing price, it's fair to say the former appears relatively affordable.

It's fair to say Auckland is arguably the worst place for workers without a house across Oceania.
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201#
发表于 17-10-2015 20:19:01 | 只看该作者
DDD888 发表于 17-10-2015 19:05
你说的很对,这世界就是没有理由可以说,达尔文进化论是说适者生存,没说强者生存或大的生存

https://zh. ...

I talked about that similar topic in my company's friday party: what's the definition of strong or weak?

It depends on the sense of value in that society.

A flattery expert is strong working in communist party, while he doesn't need to know math or science at all (like president Xi). By contrast can a top student graduating from MIT become a strong communist leader, if he does get such chance?

It's not uncommon to see a well-known TV anchor talking about his biography: I did pretty bad in math or physics when I was in high school, though everyone would agree that he/she appears to be such a smart person when interacting with guests. Similarly most phD top students would be a fool if letting them present a TV program.

The conclusion is still the same.

My theory is, everyone in general is equal by birth. We feel someone is pretty smart, it's just because he's lucky enough that he's strong points can be used in the way accepted by the mainstream society's sense of value.

Taking play video games as an example. We know many bad students failed his math or other subjects, but they play games pretty well. Because we evaluate the ability using the marks of math/science performance, their capability in playing games are largely hidden, or unrecognized. What if we turn it back, we feel doing math is useless, it's just like playing trivial games. This situation did happen in history among many cultures, including ancient China, when numerous politician/artists/warriors were officially memorized but not those a few scientists.
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202#
发表于 17-10-2015 20:29:29 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 Daibaw 于 17-10-2015 20:30 编辑

投资房不报税?楼主自己搞个投资房试试。出点差错分分钟被喊去喝茶。华人区这么搞的肯定是有,但把这个当主流你也太小看税局了。我刚来第一年因为PAYG退税数额大了点都被audit了三个多月。
而且我一直对华人推高房价报保留态度。身边接触过投资N套房的什么样的人都有,写代码的,修管道的,做生意的,收入越高的人房子越多,很多都是西人,无非没华人那么高调而已。悉尼这几年连阿里巴巴区的房子都在猛涨。澳洲这几年地产泡沫,根源上应该还是mining boom那些年本土产生的多余财富,什么时候这笔钱糟蹋完了这波楼市肯定也就到头了(西澳已经开始跌了),海外投资只是锦上添花而已(而且还很可能是来接最后一棒的)。记得有个文章说去年的房产成交来自华人的只有2%多点。
最近十年全世界的房价都和本地人的收入没啥直接关系。国内大城市房价起飞是04年开始的事,那时候互联网热潮还没开始,我毕业时候第一份工作才3000,工作几年的年薪10万都算高收入了。湾区现在的房价,如果前几年没有早点卡位的话,现在用Google FB开的工资去供都是很吃力的。所以澳洲这波也只能算是随大流啊。
而且说回来,澳洲新西兰这俩地方,气候环境方面是有别处没有的天然优势的,吸引了很多英国和亚洲的有钱人过来养老(自然也挤压了本地人的买房能力)。NZ风景比澳洲还无敌,要不是因为工作少了点,我都买个房搬去NZ住。

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203#
发表于 17-10-2015 20:40:05 | 只看该作者
DDD888 发表于 17-10-2015 18:17
根据我的了解,如果在美国找工作移民,那个过程是非常漫长的,要经历被老板辞退,失去绿卡的可能性,过程 ...

You obviously haven't read my previous posts. For what kind of people it's pretty easy to get a US PR, even without an employment sponsorship, who similarly appreciate US gov, in addition they enjoy the free postgraduate study (as a foreign student) as well as the living cost support.

Much more chef/plumbers/retailers thanks to AU/NZ gov, as they are unlike to fulfil an American dream otherwise~~

The free study is the thing I most support, The situation in the US means, the exempt of tuition doesn't due to you are a local or foreign but your academic performance. If you are a good guy, you are eligible regardless of where you come from.

That's why it's called the land of the free and home of brave.
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204#
发表于 17-10-2015 20:50:44 | 只看该作者
ScientificAmeri 发表于 17-10-2015 20:00
It's already an open secret: how many Chinese restaurants/supermarkets legally pay tax and follow  ...

如果是真的話, 那..........NZ的法律是對他們太不公平了, 而對你是太好了,不是嗎? 因為如果他們守法, 就會破產.
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205#
发表于 17-10-2015 20:58:45 | 只看该作者
本帖最后由 ScientificAmeri 于 17-10-2015 21:00 编辑
Daibaw 发表于 17-10-2015 20:29
投资房不报税?楼主自己搞个投资房试试。出点差错分分钟被喊去喝茶。华人区这么搞的肯定是有,但把这个当主 ...


I dare not say what happens in NZ is necessarily the same in Australia. I can just infer that in AU based on the fact in NZ, but not sure.

You might not be aware of the "Chinese buyer debate" raised earlier this year across NZ, revealed statistic data shows that 40% buyers are Chinese (regardless of PRs or non-PRs), while Chinese residents just accounts for 9% in Auckland who live on a low formal income than the national average. One Chinese Association chairman defended this though admitting he owns more than 30 properties in Auckland~~~

As I said before, I can't say it's exactly the same, but in NZ, even among Chinese community, few seriously doubts the impact of Chinese investors on the soaring housing bubble. Few doubts that the housing price is driven by the power from overseas. You just simply look at how poor the vast majority salary worker in NZ, how on earth they can "drive" it.

<<华人区这么搞的肯定是有,但把这个当主流你也太小看税局了>>
In terms of the rent tax, I stayed in a number of Chinese hosts and none of them signed tenancy contract and they received cash only. If you think it's uncommon, then it means I was too lucky? I've told you among Chinese guys here I knew, none of them earn a "formal" income higher than I do, including that guy working in tax bureau. I do know a guy working in Dahua supermaket where his boss paid him $10 without tax, and nobody here feel surprised since it's already the common sense among Chinese community.

I do believe Chinese migrants in AU would have a generally higher(though no so much as Chinese American) level than the counterparts in NZ, that's one of the reasons I come to chat with you guys instead of NZ Chinese bbs.

<<而且说回来,澳洲新西兰这俩地方,气候环境方面是有别处没有的天然优势的,吸引了很多英国和亚洲的有钱人过来养老>>
That is to say, California owns both advantages.
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206#
发表于 17-10-2015 21:06:02 | 只看该作者
@ScientificAmeri

不喜欢就别来 澳洲没请你来

你可以滚蛋了
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207#
发表于 17-10-2015 21:07:45 | 只看该作者
sdcmc 发表于 17-10-2015 20:50
如果是真的話, 那..........NZ的法律是對他們太不公平了, 而對你是太好了,不是嗎? 因為如果他們守法, 就 ...

You haven't recognized the truth as a whole: those working in Chinese stores do earn an illegally low wage, but don't forget they OWN HOUSES!

The first host I stayed in shortly after I came to NZ, both of the couple work in Chinese stores with non-tax less-then-miminum wage, but they own a 2-story house, where 6 people(including myself) lived there. He told me he bought that house 5 years ago for $380,000.

From this example I just show you the fact for Chinese migrants, no matter how poor how unskilled uneducated they are, they still own houses.

Is it "fair" to me?
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208#
发表于 17-10-2015 21:08:17 | 只看该作者
harvey.liu 发表于 17-10-2015 21:06
@ScientificAmeri

不喜欢就别来 澳洲没请你来

他在NZ
兄弟,你还在Adelaide吗
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209#
发表于 17-10-2015 21:15:15 | 只看该作者
ScientificAmeri 发表于 17-10-2015 20:58
I dare not say what happens in NZ is necessarily the same in Australia. I can just infer that in ...

你去过加州吗?我经常在加州转机,只有San Diego的气候可以跟悉尼一拼。

如果你想去美国,就不要这个NZ citizenship了。

直接去申请个PhD,或者简单点,自费的master by course。着急的话,不用毕业直接找工作。

顺便说一句,澳村这里好多开发类的工作都不放到seek上的,都是圈子里面推荐的。



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发表于 17-10-2015 21:16:26 | 只看该作者
ScientificAmeri 发表于 17-10-2015 21:07
You haven't recognized the truth as a whole: those working in Chinese stores do earn an illegally  ...

這个真不好說, no matter how poor how unskilled uneducated they are, 你很難說他們沒有付出比你更多.
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