关于针对地域性的帖子，非常赞同老麦的观点。

歪歪牛 · 发表于 11-9-2006 19:31:45

什么是俱乐部制度？ 
如果你就是“掌舵人”，坛子的发展方向呢？说实话，我们都是游兵散勇，今天坛子和我胃口，不用上班上来聊，移民完了，不来也就不来，只有对坛子有感情的开创人，和为它工作过的人，才会真正在乎它的生存和发展。 
 
建设斑深宫大园，很少看。FREEOZ真是不错的，这是本人唯一愿意发帖花时间的坛子。要说的都说了。

mite · 发表于 11-9-2006 17:45:57

怎么操作？谈谈具体可行的建议。 
 
现在论坛连ZHT都散了选举都搞不起来。 IT组谈何容易啊？ 
 
（随便烁烁论坛曾经差点被一个所谓技术支援“绑架”。管理人员搞了N个月讨论了N次才短臂求生。原来论坛是ORG，现在变了BIZ，就是留下的后遗症。）

gemei · 发表于 11-9-2006 19:10:21

本意是这样的：我没有贡献，不奢望民主和权利，但是如果民主在我前面晃动，发贴讨论是否要怎么怎么，我提出了自己的看法，却受到指责，说：这轮不到你说，你又不用承当后果。 还是那句，后园讨论，级别底的只能看，不得发言，大家没话好说，你的地盘你做主。 
 
或许我说的话是废话，但同样道理，你的工作也许是无用功，但依然在做“功”，评判时的标准不在于“贡献”和在坛子里存在的时间长短，在于FREEOZ的今后的发展方向。 
 
我认为话题应该在“家园”斑，现在就在此了。 
我认为此时此刻是斑竹们大量罐水的时刻（费心血的时候）、分散话题的时候，不是讨论历史，贡献的时候。还要加上不是讨论权利、民主、责任，等等话题的好时刻（从管理的角度），这是我在“说话”。 
 
没有管理权，不等于没有管理建议权，开办自助论坛了，我喜欢来，就天然的以为我有提出建议的义务。如同，顾客对喜欢的食物提出看法和评价。厨师不爱听，放不着说顾客没水平。 
 
 
说点现实的，目前我们捐款的思路是：我们有个网站，需要优质服务器，大家捐款吧。能不能说：我们租借一个满意的服务器需要多少，维持成本是多少，给予管理者的补贴是多少（义务工作的，作为他的捐款记）目前有多少，还缺多少，明年的预算是多少，目前的余额可以维持多少时间。这样大家可以量力而行。对于不信任网站性质的人，有个判断的依据吗。 
 
建站初期，大家的目标是建一个什么什么自助网站，同我们要建设共产主义一样，是终极目标，可我们到底要干些什么呢？具体的目标呢？比如，多少的注册人数、浏览量、中国最好，最有特色、最长命的或者其他什么，没有具体目标，建国后，没了方向内乱是必然的。否则大家心目中的网站形象不同，争议出现，事态就不可控。 
 
网站要长远发展，就是长命，要有稳定的经济来源，比如联合国。有个初步的想法： 
会员目前分等级，可否设置某个等级确认需要捐款，比如10元、20元，否则一些话题不能参与，等级不晋升。可以看但不发言。缺点是，需要公布帐目，工作量大。 
 
因为坛子没有讨论过资金问题，没仔细考虑过。如果方向定下，大家应该会有更好建议。 
坛子里的大多数如果认为现在很好，不变是最简单也是最安全的选择。但是现在的大多数是个变数，此点需要“掌舵人”注意，关键还是论坛的发展方向。 
 
特别说明：无论是民主还集权，都可以管理好网站。 但是已经有了民主，要回到集权是需要暴力的，比如删贴。 本就是集权，要争取民主是要付出代价的，比如分裂，比如伊拉克。 
 
我是歪歪牛。

mite · 发表于 12-9-2006 10:48:15

只有对坛子有感情的开创人，和为它工作过的人，才会真正在乎它的生存和发展。 
 
----> 
 
有道理啊。。。

micfox · 发表于 12-9-2006 18:45:34

说说吃的把：一群爱美食的人开了间品尝店，以宣扬他们的美食观，我进了该店，食物有好有坏，我想我有义务告诉店家，好在那，不喜欢是为何。 
 
Ok.. Please make sure you know what had happened in this 品尝店 before: some people are attacking others in this 品尝店 and the situation becomes worse and worse. 店小二 tried all the ways to persuade both sides to stop fighting. But none of them even listened. Then 店小二 had to lock them and drive them out of the 品尝店. Then 品尝店 became quiet. Some people who did not join this fight started to criticize 店小二 that 店小二 deprived these people of "freedom of behaviour" , some people even propose to 店小二 that they should have changed the rule to "fighting is allowed in 品尝店" and some people said they cannot continue to see the fighting scene when they eat, it is not wonderful. If you were 店小二, what would you do and how would you react? 
 
One more word, because of this type of fighting, 品尝店 is attacked by those who got driven and it has to close for quite a while. Please ask those who criticize 店小二: what were they doing when 品尝店 was being attacked? Where were they? and why? (also you can ask yourself this question.) 
 
对话语权的控制，在坛子声称走民主路线时就丧失了。就要面对反对方的攻击。删、锁、封，和民间的政治谋杀、政治监狱、死刑是相似的。 
 
Again, if you do not have any idea about which is the foundation of which (law or democracy), no point to continue.. 
 
“Some people ”不在乎是正常的，因为他“痛”不了，善意的人，是当不了责任，放对者是不会去当。 
 
I did not expect everyone will care about it. But if someone did not care about the existence of Freeoz, could he give Freeoz a break by stopping the criticism given the fact that such person did not give any contribution? 
 
 
何况筹款是管理者的天然义务。 
 Nothing is "Natural Obligation" and nobody was born to take this obligation.

歪歪牛 · 发表于 12-9-2006 18:11:41

对话语权的控制，在坛子声称走民主路线时就丧失了。就要面对反对方的攻击。删、锁、封，和民间的政治谋杀、政治监狱、死刑是相似的。如果反对方没有了话语权，就是事实上的非民主。古时候的剑客，不也用相同的武器才比试吗。 
 
对于LZ 的观点，尊重他选择的结果，但不同意他加在结果上的理由。可行但不是长就之道。如果他是管理者之一，不赞成扬着大旗以为删贴就是唯一选择。 
 
论坛靠是捐款生存，实际上就会存在大部分会员免费享用的事实，所以认为没有贡献（钱和其他）、不承当责任就没有话语权（即使是反对意见）是站不住的。游戏规则里没有这一条。 
网站的最大责任就是生存和发展。保住这一虚拟世界的责任，只有在乎它的人才能承当，就是“心痛”，旁人如何承当。 
即使有人借口言论自由来攻击，大家就要象公牛似，向着言论这快红布冲呀，那不是找死。 
 
 
说说吃的把：一群爱美食的人开了间品尝店，以宣扬他们的美食观，我进了该店，食物有好有坏，我想我有义务告诉店家，好在那，不喜欢是为何。可店小二说：爱吃就吃，不爱就走，没收钱那来意见。呵呵，没问题。 
 But the server and other related hardware does need money to run. 
我想表达的是：不是需要帐目，需要预算，给会员参与感。比如，公告余额和预计在现在的资金下，FREEOZ可以存活多久。告诉已经捐款的同学，他们使FREEOZ有了几天的生命，商业宣传语言：增加同学的荣誉感。 
 
Some people just cared more about the "freedom of speech", which does not even exist if freeoz is down when it run out of money. 
“Some people ”不在乎是正常的，因为他“痛”不了，善意的人，是当不了责任，放对者是不会去当。何况筹款是管理者的天然义务。不谈言论自由，款子也不会增加。山门香火，敬香的是不会关心的，是和尚的工作。

歪歪牛 · 发表于 12-9-2006 18:31:41

老麦：俱乐部的贴链不上。 
看了看家园建设的深宫大园，水不浅呀，复杂，可以写剧本了。

歪歪牛 · 发表于 13-9-2006 13:34:03

怎么还没明白，批评是因为“在乎”，不在乎的人，早到别出了，不用你说。你的“假想敌”不谈政治，不是你删贴，是他要FERROZ存在。 
 
会员参与的是“交流”，你参与的是“管理”，怎么拿管理的“责任”来要求“交流”呢。参与交流的人是不分享管理的“繁荣”的。（我可没说是利益） 
 
没有人发言，坛子为什么存在呢。 
 
你可以说你是移民论坛，爱来不来随便。可市面上论坛多了，大家为什么要到你这里来？你移民斑不比交流斑热，你就没看到？ 
是因为你这里的比起其他坛子“自由”，你就没想过失去FREEOZ的本色，和没有经济来源是相似的后果？ 
 
爱来不来随便，真是一句不负责的话。争论时的气话，也就罢，如果全体联盟都是以这样的观点来打理坛子，FREEOZ 的道路或说视野是不开阔的。（忍不住要说了，不想做出堂，是我白说。话说多了费神，费神伤肾也。）

micfox · 发表于 13-9-2006 13:58:20

怎么还没明白，批评是因为“在乎”，不在乎的人，早到别出了，不用你说。你的“假想敌”不谈政治，不是你删贴，是他要FERROZ存在。 
 
Ok.. I agreed with that. 
 
会员参与的是“交流”，你参与的是“管理”，怎么拿管理的“责任”来要求“交流”呢。参与交流的人是不分享管理的“繁荣”的。（我可没说是利益） 
 
Yes, I agree. But on the other hand, can “交流” has the right to demand what "管理" should do especially on the rule of the forum? (again, you can give the suggestion but please do not give it in the way of criticism but negotiation.) 
 
没有人发言，坛子为什么存在呢。 
 
你可以说你是移民论坛，爱来不来随便。可市面上论坛多了，大家为什么要到你这里来？你移民斑不比交流斑热，你就没看到？ 
 
Quote what Mite said " if the heat of the board is due to the mutual attack or fight, I preferred no heat". So please think about what it represent behind this sentence. 
 
是因为你这里的比起其他坛子“自由”，你就没想过失去FREEOZ的本色，和没有经济来源是相似的后果？ 
 
I hold the same opinion as Mite on this issue. If the heat is due to the mutual attack and fight, I prefer no heat. That is also why no one has ever attacked others and they have been polite on my board instead of criticism and attack

micfox · 发表于 13-9-2006 14:04:49

[本文由 mite 在 FreeOZ.org 原创或转贴（对于原创作品作者拥有其版权），如转载请保留此说明！] 
 
我感觉他们的模式是设立 “俱乐部”，捐款在一定金额以上（譬如2百美金，必将是少数，是对论坛最有感情，最热情的成员）的为“俱乐部成员”，大家推举“执行成员”，为最高的论坛管理小组。 
 
所有捐款到一定金额的（譬如50美金）成为内坛成员，可以进入内坛讨论论坛的管理。内坛类似我们的操作间，需要密码进入。 
 
执行成员由俱乐部成员选举产生。有辞职和顶替的机制。顶替的执行委员只在俱乐部成员再选举，不用一再“全民”选。 
 
我还没有完全搞明白。但是感觉他们的模式N年了没有分裂没有瓶颈。不搞泛民主。又民主有集中。只是靠捐款多少来搞集中是不是唯一办法我也不知道。 
 
我只是觉得 1。选举的人要是真正的论坛积极分子； 2。执行委员应该是最热心的而且要有不来就请假或者辞职，或者多日/月不来，就被顶替的机制； 3。顶替也靠选举但是小范围（譬如内坛成员）选举而不是动不动就普选。 
 
以上想法是就论坛目前的实际情况的一点想法。尽量考虑操作性而不是理想化。 
 
如果试行，以前的捐款数量都应该算。已经到了一定额度可以成为内坛成员的发短信去通知。 
 
同时内坛成员，俱乐部成员有一定的“权利”，有“贡献”，同时有“权利”，这样可能可以能保持长久的出力。 
 
光义工式管理感觉缺乏加速力，缺乏归属感。这个已经被事实所证明了。不是靠理想要看现实情况。 
 
至于是什么样的所谓“权利”：可以大家来想想。 
大原则是出了力的就被“组织”认可，就好比是尽义务，做贡献，同时享权利，有说话权。 
 
最近刚参加了入籍的INTERVIEW，要背公民的PRIVILEGES AND RESPONSIBILITIES，一样道理。那个是入澳洲的籍，我们是入FREEOZ的管理团队和核心小组。 
 
不知道想法妥当否。如果有批评的看法希望你提出更可行，更有操作性的看法来 
 
The above is what Mite ( I also think it is the only feasible solution) think is feasible for Freeoz. If you have any better and more operatable idea, please articulate.

阿兵 · 发表于 14-9-2006 14:04:03

The only word I'd like to express very kindly is "F"............. 
 
Envision what ever interpretation you democratic people.

Ultiblue · 发表于 16-9-2006 16:25:16

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micfox · 发表于 15-9-2006 23:02:23

Actually I strongly reccommended Ultiblue be the President of Freeoz.He has made some BIG statement("Although I do not agree with what you said, I protect your right to say it at any cost"),which has become the motto of many people on Freeoz and I think he is willing to take the BIG responsibility for every single word from every single user in Freeoz. Also, because he has said he is against the attack post, he will be responsible to delete the attack post 24x7,(it seems a bit odd that he also said he will protect their right... anyway, President Ultiblue is always right and there is no doubt on his words) so please give our warm welcome to Mr. Ultiblue, the next President of Freeoz and I believe he will do a wonderful job and provide a perfect place for us to have "Freedom of Speech"!!!( But Mr. Ultiblue, Please keep in mind that if anyone saw any attack post any time on Freeoz, you should be blamed (Not the attacker but you, I have said the reasons and obviously you are happy with them since you have not said anything on them) and it might be a bit annoying to you at first, but given your talent, it is just a piece of cake and I believe you will accept those blame since you are a democratic leader) 
 
PS: do not say you cannot do it since you are the most democratic person I have ever seen and if you did not do this job, no one would be more qualified for it and freeoz would be over and hijacked by those rich people, so please do not say NO and please stay on Freeoz 24x7 for us. Without you, Freeoz would be just a chaos full of attacks and there will be no "freedom of speech" (who will have more rights than you to lock or delete the post??)..

Ultiblue · 发表于 15-9-2006 22:22:21

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micfox · 发表于 16-9-2006 11:38:07

呵呵，又来胡搅了。对于胡搅的帖子，恐怕任何的理论都是对牛弹琴。 
 
Yes, I can agree no more.. To 胡搅的帖子 from you, 任何的truth 都是对牛弹琴!!! 
 
 
你自己说什么咱管不着， 
 
See? You are still keep denying the responsibility you should take until this very moment!!!(BTW, is what I said in your protection as well?Please give out your justification to whatever answer you give and do not avoid this question!!!) 
 
 
只是如果你要引用我的观点，麻烦你把我的原文给贴在下面。 
 
Ok, you need 原文, I give you 原文!!(so keep avoiding) 
 发表: 2006-09-09 16:07:33 人气:2 引用 
 
Re:让我们团结起来，不歧视别人，也不被别人歧视！！！ 
 
报告版主。 
 
此贴不仅‘地域性评论’，而且还骂人。建议锁贴，同时考虑删贴。 
 
Re:大家觉的澳洲的小学教育水平如何 
报告版主。 
 
此贴有‘地域性评论’嫌疑，建议锁贴。 
 
 
Why do you always say 建议?? Why can you not require to do it by yourself? That is why i said you should do it by yourself. 
 
只要讲的是实际情况，只要不要无理谩骂，为什么一定要锁贴呢。脏言脏语，清了不久是了。 
 
Then what if 无理谩骂? Then what is the reason you can require others to do the job instead of yourself? I know you just know to avoid the question, so be it!!! 
 
2。正如我前面曾经说过，如果必须要认证说出来的话是‘绝对’的‘事实’，最好大家都闭嘴。因为没有人做的到。只要有一定的底线，比如说不骂人，不色情，为什么不能容许人各抒己见？ 
 
I have said it before: If you can make sure every single person on freeoz has the bottomline you defined. It is OK. Otherwise, you have to take this responsibilty for it... 
 
发表: 2006-09-10 12:14:27 人气:3 引用 
 
Re:要不要锁这个帖子大家说说吧 
 
‘誓死捍卫说话的权力’，一个个说的比唱的都好听。 
 
See? Do not tell me if you have not said ‘誓死捍卫说话的权力'... Yes, maybe you will refuse to admit it as well since you are the person who just know to deny truth and deny what you said...So if you think you can do it, please take responsibility for whatever right of these 话 (including act of label)is (If you want to chew your words, you can. I am very generous on this. But you must be ready to delete any oral attack on Freeoz 24x7 because Freeoz is open 24x7)!!! That is it. 
 
 
历届领导无论他上台前是说的是如何动听，掌权之后就全部作废了。‘基本法’嘛，听起来还真不错，可惜就是糊弄新来的人的。当然了，‘铁打的营盘流水的兵’，只要刀把子在咱手心里捏稳了，倒也不愁总有一波一波的新鲜人。 
 
I am supporting you to get 刀把子, and you keep saying that I am 胡搅?? It is another word for 思维混乱 and it is not nice. 
 
 
总是胡编乱造瞎编排有什么意思？ 
 
Ok, the above are all from what you said, yes, maybe you will say they are not from you or they do not represent what you mean ( it is the trick you can play with so keep denying). Anyway, your words are 思维混乱 so that is why anything from what you said is 思维混乱 
 
 
 
PS: please answer my questions in the other post. Quit debate in the middle for no reason is impolite and it means that you do not even have courage to admit mistakes!!! 
 
 
 
我就不说你造谣中伤了，我觉得又多了一个思维混乱的。 
 
Of course you will think it is 思维混乱, because all those are derived from what you have said (the evicence are all listed above). What you said is 思维混乱, so any lemma or theroem derived from your words is 思维混乱.. That is the reason.

micfox · 发表于 16-9-2006 10:53:53

讲个远的事儿，老袁同志当年打的也是推翻帝制的旗号，而且还真把宣统给拱下来了，可后来他自己又成了洪宪了。其实他自己是不想当皇帝的，完全是为了顾全大局，江山社稷，稳定社会，人心所向啊。当然，关键的还得有人取这个‘劝进’的角儿，一般来说‘劝进’三次就众望所归，可以接受了。 
 
 
讲个远的事儿， If you know who is Lao Yuan, you must know who is Lao Sun, right? 
Can you tell me Why Lao Sun has to give his presidency to Lao Yuan after the Xinhai Revolution since he is elected? ( Maybe you will like to avoid the question again or you do not know?) 
 
 
讲个近点的事儿，隔壁那个金太阳，大半个世界都说他是‘流氓’国家。可这完全是不怀好意的‘地域性评论’。听说他外面的声音都给‘掐’了，事实证明非常有效。整个国家的人们从此沐浴在主体思想的光辉下，大家穿一样的衣服，说一样的话，同声歌颂伟大的千里马时代，见了领袖照片都一起扑落扑落掉眼泪。多么和谐的理想乐园啊。 
 
讲个近点的事儿, If you do not know what ‘流氓’ means, you had better look up the dictionary first, otherwise you are making a scene (One more piece of advice for you:Before you quoted the fair in history, please make sure you know the history holistically, otherwise it is no more than a joke). The western countries (especially US) said it is Hooligan country not because what you said ( Why western contries will care about how the Korean people are doing? If they did care, they would have called it Hooligan country after Korean War since that country has been ruled by 金太阳 a long time) it is because Northern Korea is able to develop Nuclear Weapon and threat the benefit of US in Asia. Of course, 金太阳 is not stupid, he just try to blackmail US for more money with the nuclear card. (Blackmail is the typical behaviour of hooligan so that is how his country is called that way) 
 
 
 
最后说到这里的事儿，就说一句：如果以‘捐款’以‘贡献’来确定‘话事权’是这里的游戏规则的话，恐怕在座所有顶着各项头衔的大佬们，今天也都还是跟咱们一样的平头老百姓而已。其他的就不用多说了吧？ 
 
最后说到这里的事儿， If you had money like US and is willing to take the responsibility as US does (remember: US is doing something ,not just saying something) ( e.g. take up Iraq, cut the material supply to North Korea, etc.) , you could also keep criticizing others for not being democratic, otherwise, I think you still lack something to justify what you are saying... That is how the world works.

micfox · 发表于 16-9-2006 15:19:05

At last, for your convenience, please continue what is left from the previous debate by answering the following questions directly!!! 
 
1. what are Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights? Why are they listed in the definition of "freedom of speech"?Are they made by 金太阳? 
 
2. If you made the BIG statement ("誓死捍卫说话的权力"), can you have some BIG courage to take the responsibilty for whatever you try to protect ( or at least be responsible for what you said)? 
 
3. If you cannot do something (delete the attack post 24x7 because freeoz is open 24x7), what is the reason that you can ask others (like Mite) to do the things you cannot do? 
 
4. when you aregue with someone, are you just good at shifting the concept, avoiding the question and then criticizing your opponents for 黄河源头长江口? 
 
5.When will you respect the truth,admit your mistakes and apologize for what you said? 
 
Also, if you would like to talk about the history of Freeoz, please continue to answer the following questions directly: 
 
1.When Freeoz was being attacked one year ago, what were you doing at that moment and where were you as board master? I can answer this question for myself first. I was trying to delete those trash post as many as possible.. 
 
2. Who was reboot? why was he not here any more while you still came back ?How was he related to you?

micfox · 发表于 16-9-2006 17:39:51

[UB]我没读过你说的这些，这里是一个论坛而已，你东拉西扯地有意思吗？我说过，凡事都有对象和范畴。你如果非要断章取意地硬要往上套的话，这些你都读过了吗：联合国宪章，美国独立宣言，中华人民共和国宪法，地球公约，还有火星管理暂行条例，ETC。 
 
Yes, I agree.. This is a forum. Then why do you keep talking about "freedom of speech" without knowing its definition and its constraint? 
 
联合国宪章，美国独立宣言，中华人民共和国宪法，地球公约，还有火星管理暂行条例 
They are not specified in the defintion of Freedom of Speech" . so there is no need to disccuss them.(try to shift concept? no way!!!) 
 
[UB]没错，‘捍卫说话的权力’是我以前所认为的，也是我现在所认为的，这有问题吗。 
 
First of all, please do not remove these two words before this sentence ("誓死") so that you can shift concept , as you say, this is just a forum, why do you need to make this statement with "誓死"?? If you say this sentence with these two words, it means they you have to take the protection with your life, but if you can protect these with your life, then how come you cannot do it in 24x7? Is 24x7 even harder for you to give out your life?) 
 
Second of all, please answer my following question: Have you said " although i do not agree with what you said," as the first part of your statement? If you say no, can you swear you did not? 
 
如果因为我相信这个理念那有骂人的都得我负责的话， 
 
Of course, because you are gonna do it with 誓死. 
 
那我问问你这卖淫是不是个好事儿啊？ 
No. 
 
你要是说不是的话，那满大街的‘小姐’都该谁负责啊？ 
 
Because I say No and I did not say 誓死捍卫 something, it is not my responsibility to tell you who should be in charge of that (you can ask your teacher or your parents about it). That is the principle: whoever say '誓死捍卫 blah, blah', then he should be responsible for it. If you did not say that, you would not have to. 
 
 
这是个什么逻辑？ 
 
Ask your kindergarten teacher what logic is (or ask any 7-year0old kid you know) I am not responsible to lecture you with this. 
 
 
[UB]你可以保证你的英文不写错字错句吗？ 
No, I cannot. 
 
如果不能的话，是否应该请你不要在发帖子了？ 
No, it is another typical example to shift the concept from "attack post" to "typo". Is it "attack post" the same as "typo"? please look up the elementary dictionary before you shift the concept in naive way. 
 
删了帖子你就可以保证24X7没有人骂人了吗？ 
No, I cannot. That is why you need to be ready for 24x7 so that you can protect (or delete?, it seems your statements are contradictory with each other because you also say that you agree to delete those attack post) what you have guaranteed. 
 
去那边看看，好像又有些FEATURE了。这个谁来保证呢？ 
 
Hehe, given your talent and your big words, you could do it easily ( I do not have your talent , so be it) 
 
Because you have made BIG statement to "誓死捍卫说话的权力', you have two options now: 1. you lost your life so you could prove you 誓死 to do so even though there is attack post on freeoz; 2. you did it (protect or delete? up to you since you said both things, see the evidence I listed in the previous post) 24x7 since Freeoz is open 24x7. Maybe you can tell me which one is harder to do: "死" or 24x7? 
 
如果你也保证不了为什么要求别人‘保证’呢？ 
 
No I cannot. that is why I never made the statement like "誓死捍卫说话的权力' but since you have made such statement, of course you have to fulfill it. That is why I reccommend you be the President of Freeoz so that you could do it (actually you want to do it, the evidence is in your words about 'dao ba zi' theory above). So it is not unfair as you say because no one force you to make such BIG statement. I will support you to get "dao ba zi" as well. 
 
[UB]说你‘黄河源头长江口’是因为觉得你讲话没有什么逻辑，东拉西扯，翻来复去讲到最后看的人都不明白你在说什么(希望你自己还是知道的)。 
 
东拉西扯 is because you quote a lot of irrelevant examples such as 卖淫.. etc. that is why.. 
 
具体为什么会有这个印象，原来的帖子还在哪儿，大家伙儿自己看自己心得就行了，不想再重复了。而且啊，这话在这个论坛上还是有点典故的，看来你水趟的还浅，可能都不知道噢。 
Yes, the more you talked, the more unreasonable you are. 
 
 
5.When will you respect the truth,admit your mistakes and apologize for what you said? 
 
[UB]想让别人尊重‘真理’，麻烦先证明那是‘真理’。 
 
After that post was locked, the truth is that no one creates new post to attack others as you imagine subjectively . Everyone including yourself witnesses this. Maybe you will put up your rain theory to say it is not true. then suit yourself. 
 
 
你的说服别人，不能你说是‘真理’就要求别人一定要尊重。你要是说‘太阳是从西边升起来的’，难道大家都的跟着说对？ 
 
I did not say that ( if I have said that ,please list your evidence to prove I did say that as I put up the evidence to prove my arguments), so you could not take this as your argument subjectively. That is the difference between me and you: The arguments I used are all from what you have said, and the arguments you used are all from your imagination ( if you do not think so, list the evidence to support what you said)!!! So That is how you do not respect truth or the things that have happened. 
 
你不会觉得自己就是‘金太阳’吧。同理，错了应该道歉，没觉得错到处去‘道歉’那是‘口是心非’呢？还是‘不知所云’？ 
 
Hehe, ask yourself, which argument you use is not from your imagination?? (creating new post to attack? Did it happen? The words you assumed me I have said,did it happen?) 
 
[UB]自己出来摆‘贡献’是件很无聊的事儿，本人没有这个爱好。你要是对那时候发生了什么事感兴趣最好先问问这里的管理员们。无知不是你的错，拿出来现眼就是你的不对了。 
 
Hehe, lots of other users in Freeoz can prove what I said. You can ask them ( I have to say the following sentence "无知不是你的错，拿出来现眼就是你的不对了。" to you as well. Give you a hint, ask Yan Jing) 
 
问清楚了再来说比较好，否则说不定会弄得自己很尴尬。 
 
See?till this very moment you are still avoiding my question!! What were you doing when freeoz was being attacked? where were you and why? Have you answered it? 
 
UB]REBOOT你都不知道吗？哎呀，看来你真的对这个论坛了解不够啊。同上面所说的，去问问ZHT吧。据我所知，REBOOT在这里是以关于‘三权分立’的民主理念而引起大家注意的，然后因此如愿以偿地进入的领导班子，最后是以‘气急败坏’地违规删账号，而不能自圆其说，然后只好所谓‘一命换一命’地退出的。 
 
I am happy you finally say '一命换一命’, Reboot lost his life for his mistakes so he is still a responsible man. what about you? You still have the face to come back and say 一命换一命? what 命 have you lost so far? you are not even willing to lost life to 捍卫说话的权力. let alone lose life to admit your mistakes in the way reboot did!!! 
 
IS THAT FAIR ENOUGH？ 
Please answer the questions related to you above: 
1.what 命 have you (Ultiblue) lost so far? 
2.if you did not lose any 命, why would you say 一命换一命 ? 
3.Why do you still have face to speak in freeoz this moment if you lost life? 
4.Do you have the courage like reboot to be a responsible man? 
5. How come you were Board master before and you were suddently got deleted? 
 
 
 
 
最后，如果你连中文的语气，反话都听不出来，还拿出来一本正经质问的话，我实在是不知道说什么好了。要是说建议你先补习一下中文， 
No need.. If I could type Chinese, you would have been shameful for what you have said after that post was locked.let alone asking me to 补习一下中文 
 
你肯定又会说我PERSONAL ATTACK你，当我没说这个好了。 
 
See? another typical word to deny the truth: After you attack someone, say that just pretend it did not happen. That is how you deny the truth. 
 
PS: If you still have sense of right and wrong,black and white, please think about what you have said and what you are saying. Your words can be only grouped into three categories: 
1. Shift concepts to something irrelevant so that you look right. 
2. refuse to admit the truth even after you have said it just a second ago. 
3. In order to debate with no respect to truth,you provide some virtual arguments with your subjective imagination rather than the solid arguements (i.e. things that have happened). 
 
Of course, I know why you will do it. Because you do not know to respect the law and rule. it is normal that you do not respect the principle of debate: truth.

Ultiblue · 发表于 16-9-2006 19:24:59

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micfox · 发表于 16-9-2006 19:30:32

一笔糊涂帐，你脑子可能真的坏了，赶紧吃药吧，不知道还有没有救。 
 
Hehe, I think you need it more than I because you need to take the "chew-your-word" pill first. Please go to get it before it is late. 
 
This sentence is the fourth category of your words: when shifting concept, avoiding question and creating virtual arguement stop working, you will use your last trick : personal attack. so be it..

大山 · 发表于 16-9-2006 19:49:43

蛮好一个帖子，又被两位“糟蹋”了。建议两位发个贴单挑， LEAVE OTHER POSTS ALONE。

pal2002 · 发表于 19-9-2006 02:47:17

楼上两位长篇中英文夹杂的大论，看了是有点晕 
anyway，觉得歪歪牛提出的10,20的会员制和指定预算是比较好的办法，既能补足维护网站的资金需求，又能给辛勤工作的版主以一定补贴。

gongxg · 发表于 30-9-2006 19:30:41

太长的雄辩了，看到眼花。设多两家银行可捐款的帐号吧。如方便了，也许大家捐点银两也未免不可，能够达标移民的也是有一定觉悟和能力的人士，只是一切的一切力求方便就是了。在这块IT类人才汇聚之地，能否通过今年的筒子聚会征求下大家的意见，看各自在硬件和软件方面有些什么“高招”，“三个臭皮匠，顶个诸葛亮”，届时象32楼仁兄：“只要是有需要用到我的地方，在我能力范围内的，还是那句！“义不容辞”！！！”的志愿者会涌出不少。好样的！

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